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Podcast Episode 009 – Pensacola and Jersey City Shootings

Podcast Episode 009 – Pensacola and Jersey City Shootings

This Podcast is about Pensacola and Jersey City Shootings.

Welcome to the alive active shooter survival training program where the experts break down active shooter incidents to discuss and assess each event to help you stay alive. This is your host security expert and creator of the Alive Active Shooter Survival Training Program. Michael Julian.

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Michael Julian  

Welcome everybody to the next edition of the live Active Shooter Survival Training Podcast. My name is Michael Julian. I’m the creator of the Alive Program and with me today is my good friend Mark Gillespie. Mark, how are you doing today?


Mark Gillespie  

Doing great Mike, how about you?


Michael Julian  

Good. Thanks. Mark’s out of Texas. How’s the weather out there Mark?


Mark Gillespie  

Alright, so beautiful day, today is a little cool. But we had last week we had mid 70s. 


Michael Julian  



Mark Gillespie  

And then it’s been great followed into the weekend with excellent weather. Then last night I got cold and it’s gonna warm up again.


Michael Julian  

Well, it’s sunny, but 61 or the highest 61 today, which is a cold front and Southern California, but I’ll take it. I was just in Vegas over the weekend for the International Protective Security Board Annual Executive Protection Conference with like 415 or 430 Executive Protection Agents from all over the world that was a lot of fun. And the weather was a little bit… a little bit nicer because it’s the desert but it was still a little chilly, but it wasn’t too bad. Unfortunately, we have two new active shooter events to talk about today. One was on December 6 in Pensacola, Florida. And that was… that was at a Naval Air Station. A second lieutenant in the Saudi Arabian military involved in flight training at the station was the perpetrator. So, these active shooter events are getting more frequent in military installations here in the US, which is very alarming. And, you know, we kind of wonder how in the world do these guys get access to our military, you know, what are they doing here and that it’s… it’s a little nuts. So that’s not good. And the second one was December 10 in Jersey City. Now the Jersey City incident. 


By the way, in the Alive Program, we talked about four different motives really three with kind of a fourth being an asterisk, and that is the criminal activity motivated or associated, active shooter event, like the Bank of America, North Hollywood shootout after a Bank of America was robbed but to you know 25 years ago, these don’t typically, the primary motivation is not an active shooter event. It’s usually something that coincides or comes after, and some kind of criminal activity a robbery or theft or whatever. And this one was apparently a detective approached somebody at a cemetery… cemetery in regards to some kind of homicide investigation, and the detective was shot and killed, and they ended up at a kosher deli in Jersey City, and then had a shootout with law enforcement and that ended up with several people dying, which, again this week, you know that the survival tactics may be the same but the criminal element or the active shooter event that usually starts with a criminal situation is not the typical active shooter event. 


Those… those guys are focused usually on money and then you know they may end up shooting at people like a gang initiation they go in and rob a donut store or something like that and then end up you know trying to kill everybody afterwards to get their stripes in our gang or whatever. In this situation, several people were killed because it was a they ended up at this kosher deli and then I think in the shootout people were shot. So let’s focus on the Pensacola shooting you know we’re seeing this more and more often. The Fort Hood also don’t recall the… the… the shooters name but at a Navy Shipyard. You know… Marky, what are your thoughts on why… how is this possible and these guys are… are able to do this? We’re talking about, you know, military community members that are inside a situation like this and they end up shooting a bunch of other military people I mean what… what’s going on that these people are able to be there?


Mark Gillespie  

Well a couple things are happening… and there’s a couple issues to address. First of all most people… the furthest thing from their imagination would be an active shooter situation on military installation we saw at Fort Hood problem with Major Hassan I believe his name was that was… that was incredible you know I happen… I happen to live here at the time and… and that was just a scene of total Carnage… you know, we never… especially in a place like Fort Hood you know, it’s an army base. It’s… it’s a major its largest military installation in the world. The security is extremely tight, but even at that time, I think, you know, that was even before active shooter situations were, you know, we’re on the rise. But in Pensacola, you know, we, the Pensacola case has been surrounded by active shooter cases. 


Of course many before and one or two after. But on that particular base, you know, it’s a.. it’s a flight base, they do Naval Aviation Training. And when people think about going on to a base, it’s very secure. You know, I can have a gun in my… in my vehicle and I can go through the base, I’m and that’s, that’s legal. So anyone that lives on the base, you know, may have a, you know, may have a handgun, you know, within their home or within their vehicle, just as they would offer the installation. But when you go to your daily work. You know, you’re… I don’t know what the rules are for a Principal Naval Air Station, but I can tell you that they’re not going to allow handguns inside the work… the work center. In this particular case, since they were pilots, it was undergraduate pilot training. You know, they don’t, you know, they go to work, it’s like going to an office, they go to a hangar, they go to their, you know, every day they’re going free classroom and flight instruction. So if they, they can bring a handgun in they’re relatively easy without being checked. And I think in most instances, they probably never imagined would have ever been an incident such as this happening. And I think it’s open their eyes to that reality that you know what this can happen. 


And we’ve said it before, it’s not… it’s not if it will happen, it’s when it will happen. Yeah. So I think the problem in this, in this particular case, is that I’m not saying that the Naval Air Station rules were lax. It was something that no one ever expected this type of scenario to unfold the way it did. And I think they’re going to have the, you know, there’s always a cause and effect relationship, when something happens, then we react to it. And I think they’re going to have to react to this scenario in the future to prevent, you know, future incidents from happening. And, and it’s going to have a ripple effect all throughout the military. And in terms of, you know, handguns, handgun safety, storing weapons, you know, things of that nature. One thing that’s kind of interesting that, you know, I went through my early Air Force career I was… I went through pilot training, I had the unfortunate circumstance to what we call wash out because I had a health issue that disqualified me from flying but I mean… I… I was in a training program that taught foreign students. And I can tell you the students that we had were from Saudi Arabia and Iran. And it is, even though we’re students together, there is no camaraderie between the foreign students and, and the US, you know, the American aviators. 


And I’m not I’m not trying to make a… a political statement or create a… a, you know, a negative statement. I’m just saying that you have people from completely different cultures and countries coming together to learn how to fly and fight. But I can, I can probably tell you that there was not much interaction between those students whose foreign students and the American students, and what am I trying to say? Well, all I’m trying to say is that there… there was no camaraderie. No Probably not much affection or love, you know, like… like… like you would have on a team. So I don’t know how that played into that dynamic of… of the shooting. But it’s… anyway, I just I don’t know if that made any sense. I just thought I would.


Michael Julian  

Well, you know, that you know, this shooting came just two days, the previous week there was a shooting at the Naval… excuse me… Pearl Harbor Navy Shipyard by somebody in the Navy and they killed two civilians and then killed themselves. So, you know, obviously there’s a lot of members of military and they suffered from all kinds of different things and perhaps their coping skills aren’t the best. So they end up doing something like this. But, you know, it seems like it’s starting to happen more and more often within the military. 


But then again, that’s… that’s a representation of what’s going on in our society because the shootings are happening, more amd more period whether of any demographic, military or otherwise. Now the going back to the to the Saudi at… at in Pensacola, you know, he was there on a, you know, train, he was part of the Saudi military and the Saudi government, apparently, Trump spoke to the Saudi government… the Saudi King, and you know, we have a great America has a good relationship with Saudi Arabia. So they express their, you know… their concerns and their sadness over it… but that one is… would be attributed to one of the other motives and that is ideology… ideological, this is apparently religion based it was an extreme Muslim viewpoint, anti western or anti christian, whatever, anti anyone other than Muslim. So that would fit into the, to the category of ideological. So, we’re seeing more and more of these really, like I said in every… in every demographic, you know, and what’s the answer? I mean, how… how are we going to? I mean, profiling is not okay. Obviously in our… in our society today, but is that a tool that we should start using? 


I mean, is that something the Israelis use profiling extensively their people are trained in profiling and rarely does anybody get anything over on them in their homeland when it comes to carrying bombs or weapons in an airport or public area. So you know, it comes down to is political correctness now working against us? I think probably so which is not going to be popular with a lot of people but pro profiling works so well with the Israelis. If we know that most, you know, active well actually most terrorists have a Country religion, whatever, are typically, you know, within what… 17 or 18 and 35. You know, we know that the extreme Muslim, are typically of Middle Eastern descent, you know, though there are Muslims in a lot of Asian countries as well. But when it comes down to profiling an active shooter in general, there’s… you know, it could be anyone, male, female, any age and we’ve seen that historically that’s been the case. 


So we had two military active shooter incidents or military involved the happen… you know, within a span of a week… so I’m not sure what in the world we’re going to do there. Except continued training, you know, the training is… is I think what is going to help people respond to these incidences… and then of course, continue to build up the security apparatus, whether it be electronic or physical in organizations and schools. By the way, the… apparently it happened at a school… a classroom setting… so it must have been the Pentacle shooting must have happened when they were having some sort of training for… for the airman. So what are we going to do?


It’s crazy. Not…


Mark Gillespie  

Well, you know, it’s not gonna, it’s not going to go away. It’s going to, it’s going to continue to happen. And what can we do, I think in this particular instance, now in Naval Air Station in Pensacola, but installations across the globe are going to… you know… look at their security procedures… you know… do better jobs of instituting you know, tighter security. Kind of like one at one bad apple spoils the whole bunch in regards to, you know, training foreign students… you know, I think that’s kind of been put on… on hold, especially with… with the flight school there in Pensacola. 


So I think, you know, they’re going to have to look at vetting these people better, you know, in the past, I’m not sure that US has done much to they basically rely on… on the… you know, the government from the country that students are coming from. I’m sure they’re it to a degree is… is a certain amount of vetting on our part, but I think we’re going to have to do a much better job on that. 


Michael Julian  

Yep. I gave two ALIVE training sessions at facilities last week, and both times in fact, this is happening more and more often. And I and I, I totally agree with it. I don’t address you know, we don’t address it in the live program. As much as I would like to but the program is survival. It’s not prevention. But both… both groups of people… somebody said… you know, what are your thoughts on prevention and specifically mental health?


And, you know, I… I definitely think if I did a class on prevention, it would be almost entirely focused on how do we… how do we keep people from being in the mindset of wanting to do something like this? You know, we talked about in past episodes and in the training we’re talking about mindset a lot both of our mindset security and survival and the mindset of the killer and why they do it. And I believe when I… when I talk about as you know, coping skills there are people who, in most of these situations, whether it be the first mode of anger and revenge, the second ideological and the third, psychological… unless somebody is literally diagnosed as being psychotic, which at that point coping skills is not gonna have anything to do with it because the wiring or chemicals is… is not functioning properly within the brain. 


You know, coping skills is what it comes down to. And you know, when you’re upset… if you don’t cope with that anger appropriately, you can do something like this. If you’re depressed… if you’ve got… you know, some kind of personality or… or emotional dysfunction based on a inferior or inferiority complex, like some of these kids in schools… you know, they’re bullied, they’re, they’re marginalized, they’re turned down by girls, whatever. And if the coping skills were there, were enhanced, improved and they were literally coping with these outside stimulus that is, that is creating an environment that they are not dealing with properly if they could cope with those situations the most… I believe a majority of these people would never get to the place where they’re going to do something like this. So you know, I’m probably going to start researching a little bit more in depth that portion of it because I believe with the live program, we’ve got a pretty darn good solution or at least guide to do what is necessary functionally and where your head should be, psychologically and emotionally to to cope to deal with to survival in these situations. 


But I’m really fascinated with the idea of why they get to where they get to and when they get there, how they don’t cope with it or deal with it, or process it in a more healthy fashion. So that frankly, this sort of thing is just not a solution to them. In the in the live program we talked about the reason they do this for is for power and control while it is power and control, whether it be a husband who does this to a wife and her And her co workers because she left him and you know, she’s filed for 100% custody of the kids or whatever. Whether you know being people, employees or students feeling marginalized or humiliated or whatever, by employees or students. There’s got to be something that can be done to help these people avoid that end. And I know there’s you know, there’s been some books on the subject to some degree, but I really believe we’re gonna have to start implementing some things and policies in schools and workplaces to when these precursors are recognized. To start dealing with these people a little bit more directly and in the in the training, we talked about being I’m just a little bit kinder to our fellow man. 


But we talked about recognition of warning signs. So when we see these warning signs, not only do we have to say something, but then they have to be dealt with appropriately. But we’ve got to start doing something to help avoid these. And I think that will that will absolutely be the most effective way to, to start to curb them so that we’re not increasing in events and body count every year will be decreasing. What do you think about that, Mark?


Mark Gillespie  

Well, I think you’re absolutely correct. The problem we’re facing in this, we’re going to have to reprogram our culture to a great extent on how we, you know, how we step forward with information about other people. You know, we live in a time where you say something that another doesn’t like and facing a lawsuit or you get fired for saying something negative. I remember back when racial profiling back in the late… late 80’s… early 90’s was, at least in Austin, Texas was and with Austin Police Department that was racial profiling was a huge buzzword. 


And, you know, they were the police chief here was against racial profiling. But the issue with racial profiling was for people to look at, look at signs, not look at not necessarily look at race, but look at signs and look at behavior look at, you know, to help… to help step into interdict some… interdict something that… that they think might be happening in the future. And it’s not just racial profiling, but it’s… it’s… it’s just… you know, we… we… I think over the past 10 or 15 years, however long it’s been, we’ve just become so prone to being afraid of not saying something in fear of it hurting someone. And because people complain about things that people say so… you know, it’s kind of like now you know, we always say see something, say something. And I’m telling you it’s… it’s hard for people to take that step forward because they’re, they fear retribution reprisals and that retribution reprisals can be in any number of different forms. So it’s although I agree with you, it’s going to be hard, it’s going to be a huge paradigm shift from, away from what we’ve been led to think.


Michael Julian  

And we saw that in you know, when the FBI interviewed the… the neighbors of the husband and wife, team back in San Bernardino and they attacked a government building. The neighbors were interviewed in the FBI said, Did you see anything that you thought was alarming or any red flags? And they said, Yeah, absolutely. We saw this and that and we were concerned about this and the FBI said, “Why… why… why in the hell didn’t you say something?” And the response was, “We didn’t want to… you know, be called racist. We didn’t think we didn’t want people to think that we were racist.” 


Well, because of the political correctness and this… you know, it being so horrible to say anything about anybody for any reason, several people died… when that could have been completely avoided if in… and again, we talked about in the program, it’s not about judging somebody for their sexuality, their religion, the color of their skin, any of that stuff. It’s about judging behavior. It’s about speaking out, like you said, see something, say something. If that kind of behavior is witnessed, and observed, it’s gotta be… it’s got to become socially acceptable, because the risk is so great by not saying something to bring to someone’s attention. 


Hey, you know, I just thought that I thought this was a little odd and in the training, we talked about if it’s in the workplace or in a school, if you if you’re close enough to that person, then just ask them directly and say, “Hey, you look like you’re stressed out. I know you got some stuff going on in your life. ” You know, “I know you were bullied by the guys on the football team, whatever. Are you, okay? Do you want to talk about it.” And if you’re not comfortable with that, then go to a supervisor or go to the HR Manager, go to a teacher, go to a counselor, go to a principal, and say, I just noticed some behavior and some things that were said by this person that are alarming and I would hate to not say something and then something terrible happen. So we’re just going to have to, one, recognize the warning signs which we hammer home in the live training, and two once we recognize them say something and if we’re wrong, we’re wrong. 


And… and more often than not, we won’t be an active shooter. But, you know, so many of these active shooters as we know are suicidal first, even if we say something, and there’s some Somebody gets involved and they talk someone off the ledge, maybe they’ll even stop a suicide rather not just an act you know, active shooting and mass killing. Either way, it has got to be the norm to observe and recognize the signs and then talk to somebody about it whether it be the person that the signs are coming from or someone you know close to them above them at school or work whatever but that’s the only way we’re going to prevent these things. I think


So… well… you know, hopefully next podcast we won’t have any recent events to talk about we can… I believe we’re on the impede or violent step that we do at the podcast when we don’t have these incidents to talk about so next time. With any luck, we will be able to do another step of the live program. And for any new viewers joining us for the first time alive stands for Leave impede violence and expose and its training program has been around for over five years and train thousands and thousands of people and even have at least one person that survived an active shooter in Las Vegas and credits the course with with their survival because they knew what to do and otherwise they believe they would not have known what to do. 


So anyone interested in the program, it is www.activeshootersurvivaltraining.com you can get the book… you can… you can look at the online training… the in person training, but importantly an exciting to Mark and I since Mark is one of our instructors on January 24 and 25th we will be having another live certified instructor course. So anyone wanting to learn the Alive Program and teach it to their employees, to their friends, to their family, to clients, whatever… they will… they will learn the program. over a two day period and become certified in that. Mark, do you have anything else before we take off?


Mark Gillespie  

Not really. I know it’s a special time of the year for most of us and I just want to take this opportunity to wish your viewers and listeners a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. May it be safe and filled with love and joy and hopefully that none of us will be affected by the things we’ve been talking about here today.


Michael Julian  

Yes, excellent point mark. Thank you and we will not likely have another Live podcast this year in December because of all the things going on. So now is an excellent time for that message. I also like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, Happy Holiday whatever. Whatever you celebrate, I hope it’s wonderful and warm and safe. And you enjoy friends and we will look forward to our… seeing you again with our next podcast which will be in early January. Mark, I want to thank you as… you as usual, you are a phenomenal representation of the Alive Brand and a great contributor and a good friend. And I also wish you a wonderful holiday if I don’t see before the next podcast. Thank you for being on, my friend.


Mark Gillespie  

Thank you. You too, Michael.


Michael Julian  

All right, everybody, be safe and have a great, great holiday. Bye bye.


Let’s keep in touch. 

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